HomeMy WebLinkAboutP&Z MINUTES APRIL 15, 2004CITY OF REXBURG
PLANNING AND ZONING MINUTES
Thursday, April 15, 2004
6:00 p.m.
Special Meeting: City Council /P & Z to Discuss the Design Corridor along US 20
Meeting Commenced 6:05 p.m.
Attending:
Shawn Larsen, Mayor
Planning & Zoning City Council Members
Chairman: Winston Dyer -Excused Rex Erickson
Members: Robert Schwartz -Excused ' . Donna Benefield
Mike Ricks Farrell Young
Mary Haley Paul Pugmire
Steve McGary- Excused Garth Oakey
Jerry Hastings
David Stein -Excused
Joseph Laird
Randall Porter
Mayor Larsen: Opened the meeting. The two items in this work meeting to address with
planning and zoning are the Commercial Design Standards, Ordinance 907 and just to bring
you up to date, I know 7 was first read back in November and it talked about commercial
design standards, at that time as first read there was a moratorium put on commercial
buildings in excess of 36,000 sq ft. for 180 days, or until this ordinance passed. There was a
lot of concern on this new ordinance by the new council and so the purpose of this work
meeting is to give Planning and Zoning Direction on how to proceed. The second issue is a
US 20 Highway corridor. Kurt, I'm going to ask you to give us a brief background on the
purposes of commercial design standards.
Kurt Hibbert: Most of you are aware this last year the City of Rexburg implemented and passed
ordnance on design standards on multi family housing. We are seeing some tremendous
impact of that now in the city. All of the multi family apartments being built right now are
having those design standards applied. The intent was to get away from the barracks looks
that are happening around town, the big boxes, to give some architectural significance and
feeling to the building and get a better street scape. The designs standards require the eyes to
the street section, in that, what does it look like from the street, does it have. good
presentation, or do we have the butte end of the building out by the street an eyesore internal
to the property we had to develop or had done that. The natural follow up to that was
Commercial Design Standards were on new building commercial development so that the
desire on the part of the council instructed Planning & Zoning to start looking at that -and
from the commissioners had a subcommittee gathering information on what P & Z's are
doing and what they have done as far as commercial design standards. The prototype of
what they actually set forth in the ordinance came out of an Oregon development Code which
is widely applied to many small cities in Oregon. They are kind of generic; they are mostly
varying design standards. There are two types of design standards, some are prescriptive and
some are descriptive, they describe what you want but they don't make if law. Prescriptive is
design standards are law you have to comply. Most of the things in Oregon was a descriptive
type, I would like to see this kind of development and is describes as general feeling and
aura, but it didn't say thou shelt do this but the expectations were set forth. Generally
speaking that is what compelled that. One of the things that has been discussed I know in our
work meeting with the City Council and the Planning & Zoning that we had there was an
original approach to the design standards there was no definition between the central
business district and the highway business district. The good Conesus that those two should
be treated differently and now with our downtown consultant that we are working with there
was a lot of talk that what ever happens with our downtown consultant that whatever the
downtown standards should be coordinated with that downtown planning process, there was
.some thought that was and maybe we could discuss that and what your ideas are there. But
is in case from my perspective that could be very beneficial to break the design standards in
the commercial zone by zone rather than one broad brush.
Mayor Larsen: How many zones are we talking about then?
Kurt Hibbert: Right now in the existing ordinance there are only two. Highway Business
District and Central Business District.
Mayor Larsen: But in the rewrite of the zone?
Kurt: We will break the Highway Business District into three zones, I can't remember what they
are right now but basically they are a regional shopping type zone, a bigger big box type zone
a step down from that, and a neighborhood, kind of have a graduation scale.
Mayor Larsen: Our downtown commercial business district would be in what, in the
neighborhood.
Kurt: It is its own zone. The central business zone will be preserved.
Mayor Larsen: So that will be preserved and the highway business will be split into three.
Kurt: It is a tapering complexity of use, it high end a big shopping mall, big box type
developments, stepping down to maybe what we have on like on 2"d E right now, the down to
a neighborhood business district that could be a specific use in high density residential or
mixed with housing, something like that. The design standards that could be created are
applicable zone by zone. So you can have different standards by different levels of
complexity.
Farrell Young: The way it was originally when it was written wasn't it descriptive rather than
prescriptive.
Kurt Hibbert: Yes, 90% of it plus was descriptive.
Mayor Larsen: There was some real concern on the council of the description?
Kurt: Yes, whether the descriptions were where we wanted it to be or not. That is why it was
out on the table was because of that discussion, take this out, put this in, we like this, we
don't like that. We need to get something on the table so the discussion could start and
without that document it is very hard to know what we are discussing. But leaving that aside,
those are the general concepts, we would like to proceed in the development of design
standards, maybe you can just do them one zone at a time as we march through this, leaving
the central business district to a future point and time when Tom Hudson. & Co. And the
downtown people can get their planning process completed and what they want to do and we
can address that in conjunction with that.. In general does that answer what you wanted me to
address Mayor?
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Mayor Larsen: I guess I would like to know the feeling of the council, do we want commercial
design standards, should be throw out 907 and start new and break them down by these
business districts or what's the feeling?
Garth Oakey: I feel like by breaking it down into 3 zones like you mentioned you could do more
prescriptive right, than descriptive and we would gain greater control over that area and have
a less likely chance of them huilding something we didn't like out there. Is that right or is
that wrong.
Farrell Young: The businesses that I have talked to are really really shy or hesitant about having
anything placed upon them that would be so restrictive, they don't like the idea of being told
they have to build grey or green or have certain kind of vegetation in front of it. It was just
so specific that I really worried and that was the tone of this letter from Erick Erickson. He ~~
was really concerned that they were just too picky about details and so he says, we live iri ~,,
America, shouldn't a business have a right to choose the way he wants his business to look ',
or do we have to fit into a keyhole or do we have to fit into a prescribed pattern that makes
our whole city look like it did in 1890 or 1910 and you know the Historic Preservation
Committee is working on a really nice plan to give some uniformity to the downtown area to
make it look, so it doesn't loose it's personality from years gone by so that is one perspective
and the other perspective is the businesses don't want to loose their individuality and their
ability to choose and put their business forward the way they want to put it forward and not
have the city say you have to do this and you have to do that. There is some feeling out
there.
Garth Oakey: If it was descriptive, more descriptive than it was in the past, what are some of the
problems that have occurred because it has been descriptive rather than prescriptive?
Group Discussion
Mayor Larsen: Look at apartments, there is a perfect example of when we didn't have design
standards. We were getting apartments, we were getting a lot of complaints saying why is the
city allowing them to build those types of apartments, basically the barracks look. The
decision was made to pass design standards for multi family homes or multi family
complexes and I can tell there are some are just squeaking by. But you can tell they have put
the shutters on and they put an awning over the door and different things to comply with that
that was because we made the decision when I was on the council to put in design standards.
I recognize we don't want to keyhole everyone into this is the way we want it to look. On
the other hand if we don't have any sort of standards then we are beholding to looking like
every other community.
Mike Ricks: I was thinking Mayor, and Councilman Young the problem our ordinances left
latitude from point A to point Z for the people to do their building in. We come in a whole
lot of these people that are taking advantage of the community by coming in and cleaning the
gravy and then leave us with a problem in 10 years a serious problem, the buildings will fall
down, how can we do this, some builders and there are a lot of them in this community, you
can turn them loose with this much of a latitude, some builders come into this community
and we don't want to give them anymore latitude from point A to point B you don't want to
give them clear to Z, because they will take advantage of us. So from the planning and
zoning that is where this is coming from not all of them but just takes 2, 3 or 4 to take make a
mess of the whole thing and that is what we are trying to do, I guess the only way to stop that
is to be more specific maybe and give as much latitude.
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Garth Oakey: I have questions concerning that part of it. Part of it you want to do prescriptive,
like the building codes: how far apart the 2x4's, how deep the footings all that type of thing.
Where as the cosmetic part of the building you could leave it to more descriptive. Is it that
fair to say that or are there parts of it that you want to be more specific on those other parts?
What do you think?
Mike Ricks: The building codes are only on safety, the International Building Codes, it is safety
oriented. It doesn't do anything, the people upstairs flush their toilets upstairs and you can
hear it the next three apartments all the way down to both sides. Is that quality? The
Building Code does not address that.
Mayor Larsen: I guess the burn goes on the fire.
Farrell Young: I think it is a good idea to think about the Highway 20 overlay corridor to
improve out entrances into the city and to get rid of some of the debris that is accumulating
along the freeway out there, if we put it all together we could really improve the entry into
Rexburg and passing by out there. Just passing by the city they will say hey there is a
community that has some pride in it.
Mike Ricks: The other thing, we are looking on P&Z kind of the direction we have been going I
don't know whether it is right wrong or indifferent I think everybody on the Planning Board
has a different idea on that. So far most of our commercial developments has been on the
corridors type and stuff into town if use that as the business district or the commercial district
then we are going to have these problems that we are discussing that may not look attractive
as it would to have some nice homes on the corridor. I guess my question is are we cutting
off our nose to spite our face when we are putting the business development on the corridor
roads into the community because some of them will be using the big box type look in some
of those businesses and you know they could be that and that may of may not be as attractive
as a person would like. I don't it's a big ball park. This is something to think about.
Joe Laird: Let's go back to the design standards for a moment, I think we have a good example
of buildings just being built, on the river you have Jack in the Box, as the one example, is
that what we really want along the main street of Rexburg. Right beside of it the rock fascia
on the buildings and on the side this type of thing I think you can project the same number of
oh what a terrible looking building when you go to Idaho Falls for example or any big city
you the used car signs in the bright red and yellow and this type of thing. We need
landscaping that will make it more appealing.
Farrell Young: I think what we are dealing with here is what is appealing to one isn't appealing
to another. I don't see anything objectionable to the Jack in the box, other people do. There
are a lot of things that we try to tell somebody what looks good it may not look good in their
mind and so you are dealing with personalities and you are dealing with other people's ideas
and sometimes it is hard to legislate those kinds of things but I agree with you.
Rex Erickson: I don't like this 907 at all I think it has some real bad flaws in it, the way it is
written and what it is trying to do.
Farrell Young: Do you think it is a good idea to have an ordinance like that, could we correct the
flaws?
Rex Erickson: I'm not sure it is even needed, I think that some things, but the design part of it, I
disagree with in the fact that every has there own, unless you are a designer or a man who
makes a living designing, design does not mean as much to many other people as it does to
one like that. I don't know where all this came from, but there is just some things in there,
this keeps referring to historic Rexburg, that we want to preserve Rexburg historically. Will
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somebody tell me what is historic Rexburg? The church is the only thing that is historic
about Rexburg, that is what started Rexburg and that is what was historically was the church.
The way the town was laid out everything was from the church. What else historically has
happened in Rexburg since Rexburg was here. We had the flood that solved a lot of
problems we had. But as far as actually being a historic city, we don't have a lot of history,
we don't have a lot of historic things in Rexburg, we have some nice older homes that could
be kept and all. This goes through here and just continually talks about historic vales,
historic parks sense of place and all of that, now the only person that I know of that can
appreciate for the enhancing of its natural and historic sense of place. Not that has to be a
design engineer that comes up with a statement such as that to put in there, you and I would
never dream that up, I don't think anybody around this table would ever dream up those kind
of statements and put into an ordnance unless it was a design engineer. Rexburg historic
resources are vast. Name me what the historic resources of Rexburg are that are vast, we
have great farms, great agricultural area, but what historically draws people to Rexburg, to
see Rexburg-and to spend any time in Rexburg historically, other than the flood.
Donna Benefield: The Carousel
Rex Erickson: You see what I'm saying.
Mayor Larsen: I don't disagree, we need to either, instead of going off of 907, and I think we
need to come to a decision of the council of whether commercial design standards are a good
thing or a bad thing. If they-are a good thing to what extent, I personally think it is a good i,
thing to have design standards, it has helped us in the multi family housing, we are getting ',
better aesthetically pleasing structures going up because of the ordinance we put into place. I
think we can do the same thing with our new commercial buildings. I'll go back to the Jack
in the Box because there are communities that I go into franchises there is not just one plan
that they lay down, they have 3, 4 or 5 in their back pocket they can say I can build A, B, C,
or D; but if you really want I can build these. So I think we need to decide what we want in
our community, what we will accept and what we won't accept.
Rex Erickson: That is why we have Planning & Zoning Board. I think the Planning and Zoning
Board can control that. I think they can control what is built.
Mayor: If it meets the ordinance it will be built, they can't control, and they can't answer yes or
no on the spot because they have reviewed the ordinances.
Garth Oakey: I have one other question about this, concerning things like, Kroger came in and
bought Smiths & Fred Meyers, so they had two stores across the street from each other, they
emptied the Smith's out in Pocatello, is sitting empty no one can come in and bus divide that
building or break it up so that it can be used in other ways, it is basically only good for
another grocery store and they don't need another grocery store down there. So I think it is
good that we have something in place that allows changing that building or fixing it or
something in the structure. I think parking in an important issue it should have so much
parking, fire codes those things are those already covered.
Donna Benfield: They are all covered aren't they?
Garth Oakey: How much is covered and how much isn't and those kinds of issues.
Mayor: When I was down recruiting sunbirds, I stopped by a community in Arizona that has
design standards and talk about a thick manual they have a think manual and design
standards; here is what we would like to see built in our community. That is the fastest
growing area in the United States; they have 17,000 people move into that valley in the
Phoenix area every month.
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Donna Benfield: What you just said, here is what we would like our community to look like.
When we first read this 907, I thought is was much more prescriptive than descriptive tha
the way it came at me first and I thought no, no, no, no, there is no way we should tell the
independent businessman how to run a business, what it should look like, what size it sho
be, what color it should be on and on and on. I thought that was exactly what were doing
was telling us. But what I have learned is: no it is descriptive; we were saying this is wha
we think we would like it to look like now we are not saying you have to do it that way. S
have come back from a little bit where I was more to the middle you might say and what y
just said is here is what we would like it to look like. I wouldn't be opposed to a design
standard if we wrote it instead: here is what we would like our community to like look, b
you want to build something else that are your privilege and your right.
Rex Erickson: If it is written that way it is alright, if a company right new picked this up that
was planning on coming to Rexburg, it would discourage them. If I was an investor and
picked that up, plain as it is it would discourage me from coming to Rexburg, I don't like
that.
Mayor Larson: Garth brings up the point that if it is a big box building it needs to be able to b
sub divided. That is something you could require, if you are building a building over X
amount of square feet that is something that would have to be able to be sub divided. The
needs to be a break up on the facade.
Mike Ricks: But that is all you have to say, you don't have to say.
Randall Porter: We talked about Jack in the box, I don't know if you guys can remember ba
when Martell Grover had his home across from Adams school building, I guess Martell's
home was victim of the flood then he sold that piece of property to someone who put up a
steel farm building right there on that corner. Washington Federal is there now but they
completely changed the facade they built over it, do you remember what it looked like? It
was a steel farm building. To come to your point Donna, we could say we prefer to have a
attractive building there to fit into compliance just io make the community Iook better but
he says no I'd rather have my steel farm building and I'm going to build it, then what are w
going to say? Now that is one example, another example is right next to me, where my of
is, there was a fellow there that had an electronic store called Tito's. Tito decided he want
to paint his bricks on the front of the building red, what and blue. It really looked bad, no
offence to Tito, he is a nice man, but if we say we prefer you not to take every brick and
paint it red, white or blue on the front of your building but, it is your building, you can do
what ever you want, but we prefer it look a different way. These people are going to bring
their own taste, their own culture, acid their own experiences from other communities and
apply them here in Rexburg.
Donna Benfield: But we didn't have any design standards at that time.
Randall Porter: Exactly right, that is why we need one now.
Donna Benfield: But if we did say that this is the way we prefer it, maybe he would have gon
that way.
Randall Porter: Who knows? But if it is a little more prescriptive than what you saw originall
but maybe a little less that what you are talking now there maybe we can find a comprise, b
I don't think we can rely on our discussion tonight to carry into the next 5 - 10 years or the
next 100 people that are on planning and zoning. I think if has to be down on paper and I
• think it needs to head off those kinds of things, because I don't want to go on 2"d East and
another farm building put up on a corner like that.
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Rex Erickson: Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with some controls on that sort of thing,
but I do have some serious problems with the way that some of this is written that talks about
some of the stuff that means absolutely nothing to me.
Randall Porter: Was this brought in from some place else?
Jerry Hastings: Randall that actually came in from David and he went around and spent quite a
bit of time, went to Hailey, went to different historical towns and I think I see where
Councilman Erickson is coming from. He picked those up and that was the wordage that was
in there and it went through. Frankly, this was pushed through to give the City Council some
guidance. I think all our group needs are the tools. We have to have the tools, every-time we
try to stop something, you have been there, the mayor has, we try to stop something I think
the Planning and Zoning Commission, we are an out spoken bunch, but when it comes down,
I really believe the ideas that come out of it, the intent are good. So what happens is, the
minute we get to the point where we no there is something we want to stop, or something we
want to change, we can't do it. That is the frustration, I don't know that I would call it
frustration but that is what has driven this. From my personal stand point I think it should be,
but you know Randall has a perfect point, that is what I was sitting here thinking. Your
remember the old Pamida Store? Now would you like that Pamida Store down here on Main ',
Street or in our main business district, you know. My home town is in Wyoming, it has a ',
Pamida Store. It looks like garbage; it has a metal building, with all windows in the front it
just doesn't speak to the community. My desire would be for us to practice some way.
Randall Porter: You have someone that owns Pamida, that lives in gated community somewhere
in San Francisco who knows where else and he puts a metal building as cheap as he can build
it in Rexburg, Idaho. He doesn't have to drive by and look at it ever, the guy that owns the
Jack in the Box, in Teton River Plaza, he lives in a gated community somewhere, and he
doesn't care. You can argue the point whether we have a historic city or not, some people
say we have something, with a few examples, but we sit at a historic moment right now.
Because with the growth of the city we have already been caught behind the 8 ball on a lot of
things that have been built and we are dissatisfied with the look of a lot of the projects that
have gone in and so I think, in my 6-8 months experience on the Planning & Zoning what
I'm hearing we have a historic opportunity right now to put in place some things that will
correct some things that have already happened, we are going to have to live with the things
that have been built right now, but I think in 15-20 years some of them are going to be falling
over, I think. But we can prevent that from happening from this point forward, so I look at
this as maybe this is the genesis of what people will look back 50 years and say back in 2004
when they came up with these ordinances that really they have a look, or maybe we need to
think in terms of making a look and so that people will look back at this time and say that's
what happened and- that is why have this look we have today.
Farrell Young: Speaking of a look from somebody who has been away the community quite a
while, I came back and I saw a new look in Rexburg. When I look at the Standard Journal, I
look at Rudd and Co. I look at Thatcher's Law Office. It seems to me there has been kind of
an overriding influence that tells people to fix up your business and make it look similar. Did
that come by design or by accident? Did they decide to make them look alike with that
stucco look?
Donna Benefield: They each independantly decided to do it.
Randall Porter: Someone put stucco on the building looked good to someone else and he did it
too so on & so forth.
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Mayor Larsen: That is a good argument for design standards if one person does something and
then they see that it looks good, I think you will get builder after builder say OK, that looks
good.
Donna Benfeld: One company after the other thought the stucco looked good, Standard Journal
that looks good, so Rudd and Company said wow, that looks I want to do it, then Alliance
Title said I like the looks of that I want to do it and then so did Rigby and Thatcher. More
than one person thought it looked good. It's all the way to the counseling center at the other
end of Main Street, where it really looked bad at that one end and now it is looking better,
but the perfect example there was a dozen people that thought there business would look
better if it looked like that, but in the design standard the engineer that you are talking about
said no stucco allowed.
Garth Oakey: That is the thing I disagree with in here, if it gets too restrictive for everyone.
Mayor Larsen: I want you to look at this, would we want a building that would look like this or
like this. (Showing pictures) I look at what they have done here and this is extensive, I
would like to say here that Ordinance 907 that was our first try, lets give our Planning and
Zoning and The Creative Community Development Department, let's give them a focus,
maybe that focus is to look at design standards a lot of them being descriptive, with some
prescriptive design standards. Fewer details break them up by zones, by commercial zones
on a new zoning and then come back, come back to the table with a document saying OK.
Then we can look at that document this is way too detailed.
Rex Erickson: I thought we did that very this around the table.
Mayor Larsen: We did it on planned residential development PUD.
Rex Erickson: I though we did it on this and this came back almost word for word as the original
one was.
Rex Erickson: This is the original nothing and changed.
Group: It must have been Planning and Zoning,
Nyle Fullmer: T 1-iat was the PRD
Kurt: We did have a meeting with a general discussion just like this with some focus and some
agreement, in fact we wrote them down and there was some unanswered questions
particularly in this ordinance applies to the broad brush strokes over all the commercial
districts we didn't have consensus to break it down, and the question I'm really getting the
direction on tonight is we want different standards by zone. If everyone has consensus on
that what the Mayor is saying I think we can accomplish this really quickly. We will apply
design criteria zone by zone. We have three new commercial zones coming for highway
business districts that will be tapered more complex uses. I think that relatively quickly I
would defer again to the City Council and the Planning & Zoning Commission. I really feel
that we need to be careful in approaching the central business district right now until this
downtown planning is done. I think that planning in concert with the consultant and what
they do downtown. If they come back with really strong recommendations then we will need
to orient our design standards to those recommendations.
Mayor Larsen: Here is another area I think we agree on, is that we have talked about a separate
a committee for design review and the feeling I think amongst the City Council let's keep
that in Planning and Zoning, maybe have a sub committee of Planning and Zoning we don't
want to create another bureaucracy.
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Donna Benfield: Could I just add one thing, I spend some time with Tom Hudson, we walked
around and looked at the downtown and his suggestions were all descriptive. He said no way
would he like to see or would he ever suggest the prescriptive, he said if you come up with
design standards that's find in suggestions like Steve has done, he really liked what Steve
Oakey brought out and said if you are thinking of remodeling and putting a facade on maybe
this is a suggestion. He said but always a suggestion never this is what a must is.
Mayor Larsen: However I go back to this, I would say, this isn't just a suggestion, I don't want
that.
Donna Benfield: But I think there is a comprise, I think that is something we would want to do
and maybe not so hard on the other end or something.
Mayor Larsen: How about we come to this conclusion.
Group Discussion
Mayor Larsen: I think that give you direction Kurt. This is the Planning and Guidelines Manual
from Surprise Arizona, it gives you lighting, street cape, lots of pictures, and if I were a
developer I would think OK that is what the community is wanting.
Randall Porter: I agree with the Mayor, I think we should be moving more in this direction is
that a guideline or is that an ordinance.
Mayor Larsen: It is a guideline, however in their ordinance it refers to this document.
Randall Porter: Let's get some pictures on ours.
Group discussion.
Mayor Larsen: I think that gives us direction, I think the next step round be the guidelines or the
design review standards come before the Planning and Zoning they can look them over and
make suggestions on what Kurt has put together and then they can come to City Council and
the City Council can review them. I'm not sure what happens, when we first read Ordinance
907 does it just
Blair Kay: You can make changes on the 3ra reading, you can come in with a completely I,
different wording, it is not appropriate to do that on the 2"` reading. The risk we run is that
we will read an ordinance that we know that we are going to change. ~I
Group Discussion
Mayor Larson: Let's move on to the design corridor on US 20. Kurt how do you see that tying
in, go ahead and pass that out. (Copies of maps)
Farrell Young: Are you talking about the streets coming into town or the freeway itself?
Kurt: I want to answer that right off. This is Jefferson Davis Highway corridor; this is how they
defined their map. As you see it wasn't just the highway corridor, they actually included area
of cross streets and extended the design standard to the other areas it just doesn't extend
along the main areas going North and South. This is similar to our community in that sense,
it has interchanges and you could extend a block or two out off the interchange and apply the
standards if so you could draw the line. however you would like it as far as the overlay itself.
The sample document is nothing more than a document that refers to how the design
standards would be applied, but it refers in the document in section 1.5.4 where to a Highway
20 corridor design manual, where you would have to in the ordinance itself you would have
to have specific design criteria by zone that would be applied inside that overlay area. So
like if you have an industrial parcel you may require a 10 foot wall that was concrete along
the coo rider it could be a landscape burm or landscaping whatever the Planning and Zoning
Council defines as the visual treatment that would in that zone, it could vary, a residential
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• have both zones bordering 20 so we would have to come up with something that would
seemingly work as you went down. In this document they had set backs and they dealt a lot
more than just the visual treatment. The thing that they did do is they talked about
landscaping requirements, trees, burms; we currently have burms out on certain properties
with landscaping that draw sections and say this is the typical. section, should have trees this
big on it. Whatever we came up with, but that is required and what I would think is from city
limits to city limits and however you drew the boundaries in between that would be special
design review criteria any development would have a special on their site plan approvals
would have this special overlay review on that site plan.
Mayor Larsen: Do we have property that is not in the impact or in the city that is along that
corridor?
Kurt: Outside the city limits? Yes we do, you might take these same criteria to the county and
ask them to adopt a similar thing and if they felt they could do the same thing so it would all
tie in together.
Mayor It would make sense if we adopt something.
Rex Erickson: When this was originally brought up. It was concern as of how it looked coming
in from the south. One of those is the Meadows Condominiums and the one's on the east
side of the street (Highway 20) that was what was originally was to avoid having that type of
look. We were going to extend it the whole length, which was the original idea. We never
did talk originally about coming off those going down streets.
Kurt Hibbert: That has come up sense that very question; whether or not you could extend it
down to include beautifying the entrances, in that corridor. The discussion was not doing
certain industrial uses down in Bonneville County that people are really offended by and
would rather not see that happen along our corridor.
Farrell Young: You have seen out by the transfer station where is has turned into a cement
dump.
Joe Laird: You have about '/4 mile from Hitt road south towards that on the east side of the
freeway where you have stacks of junk here.
Mayor Larsen: You set a good standard in fact you did set the standard there on that entry way
and so that is what the Planning and Zoning tried to follow in the future development there
but
Nyle Fullmer: My understanding is that he is trying to raise that out of a flood plain and that he
has allowed people to bring fill in so that he can the utilize that property for a commercial
entity. It's not just a dump, my understanding is that BJ's going to go out there and grad that
and then construct a facility of some kind, so it's not just going to be a big dump area.
Jerry Hastings: One of the problems too is you have the housing that backs up to freeway, you
can go out there after a wind storm and see garbage cans all along that fence. I don't think
that is the kind of thing you want to see.
Mayor Larsen: One comment I would make on this is we put this in ordinance corridor; it makes
us responsible for our own entry ways, if we want our corridor to look nice, and we also have
to take some responsibility on our entrances to the city.
Kurt Hibbert: Mayor that would just require an individual development by zone and we could
certainly do that.
Mayor Larsen: How would the council feel about that? Highway corridor standard by zone,
light industrial this is the standard if you fall into this highway corridor overlay basically, you
have certain standards by zone. Kurt how many zones?
10
Kurt Hibbert: All the multi families that border US 20, we multi family, we have single family,
we have highway business district, cultural zoning, we have to figure out what we are going
to do with each development type in each of those zones.
Farrell Young: I agree the city needs to take their fare share of the responsibly to spruce up
entryways off the freeway.
Joe Laird: I thing one of the things we have had quit a bit of discussion about, would apply to
our proposed comprehensive plan and of this shown in yellow is industrial zone, so you can
see we have a lot of industrial zone bordering our freeway and our concern was that this
industrial zone from last week had some sort of established criteria for landscaping or burms
or walls or whatever. It would just like that section of US 20 does between here and Idaho
Falls.
Garth Oakey: In this comprehensive plan we have been looking at it, is to expand our indust~~al
zone from 2%-9% by 2012. What do we do, where do we put that industrial area if are going
to expand and we don't put it along Highway 20. We are going to have to find another
location aren't we?
Farrell Young: I don't think it is a matter of not putting it there; it is a matter of making it look
good.
Mike Oakey: They can make industrial buildings look good; they can make them look as good as
a home.
Mary Haley: If they can make a barn look good they certainly can make industrial buildings
look good.
Mayor Larson: I feel like we have given direction to both of these. What I would like to see
happen both of them be brought together into a definition by zone on the commercial,
realizing we still have a lot of work to do on this I think the next step is to have something on
the table, then go before Planning & Zoning and have the council also have a copy of that
and then go through another three readings of a new ordinance.
viike Kicks: Mayor in the process then do we still have the moratorium on the 36,000 sq foot
building until we have the three readings on an ordinance?
Mayor Larsen: The council needs to decide that.
Rex Erickson: The moratorium was just 180 days, it ends the end of May or first of June.
Mayor Larsen: The council needs to decide that and needs to put that on the agenda.
Blair: The Council meeting the 21St of May.
Jerry Hastings: With that I think that somehow we need to consider. I don't know how you do
it. Councilman Oakey talked about Pocatello, we have the same thing in this community,
what happens is these big box people come in and they build and then they move or close
down and then they won't sell the property to certain individuals. The deal in Pocatello, they
are cinder block buildings they can be broke up anyway, it's not hard to do that, put
partichions in, change the facade, and it is done all the time. What happens is, the guy with
the investment company will not sell it because it is a conflict with another project he has or
it's a conflict of business he has or if it in another business as the same as theirs he won't sell
it or he overprices it because he is using it as a tax write off all those kind of things, I don't
know whether there is any way, I don't have any qualms about big box buildings, but when
they close it down and basically just walk off and then say, we are not going to sell to this
guy that guy is going to break it into four pieces, four businesses, we are not going to sell it
because that is our competition across the United States, because we sold out, we don't want
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11
• of the major concerns of our planning and zoning: All we have to do is have a plan, even if
the city says we have these businesses, we can put a redevelopment on that. There are a lot
of different tools, make so that have to come to the table in good faith and work to fill that
building. I know Wal-Mart, in a couple of cities somewhere has lawsuits because. that is
what they have done. That is the worry I have with a big building, look at Idaho Falls,
because that community is growing there was a large big box that had to move, there has
been two of three of them some of them haven't been filled.
Rex Erickson: Anytime you have growth you are going to encounter that, I think we can
minimize that don't you.
Jerry Hastings: That is what I'm saying, we not going to get it totally stopped but I look at Idaho
Falls, if those buildings be redeveloped and put into something or had some incentive when
they move, one of them moved across the street basically, have some way to get them to
come to the table and help fill them with something.
Garth Oakey: Not to block development, stonewall us or stand in the way of making change.
Paul Pugmiers: We should all have the concerns of visibility of access, I want to see a lot of big
business in our town, when their place in the market changes, we don't want them to leave a
hole in our town.
Mary Haley: Should they change their plan, which could part of the requirements for doing
business in Rexburg. I don't think if they plan for it before rather than taking one particular
corporation making rules for them, that is where we get into trouble. If we have a plan for
everyone, and everyone is treated equitably.
Mayor Larsen: I would like to see on the table in the near future, design standards; corridor and
exit strategy should be incorporated with that.
P & Z 7:25 meeting begins
Consent Agenda: The consent agenda includes items which require formal Planning
Commission actions, however they are typically routine or not of great controversy. Individual
Commission members may ask that any specific item be removed from the consent agenda for
Commission's agenda packet regarding these items.
Jerry Hastings: Acted as Chairman, opened the meeting
Conditional Use Permit for an apartment complex:
"Tuscany Place" (over 23 units) at 4th South and 2"d West - (the old
Erickson Pontiac Property) Sainsbury Construction Co.
Jerry Hastings: I now open Public Hearing for Testimony for and against.
Tom Sainsbury: Sainsbury Const. & owner of Tuscany Place, the apartments have 48 units, 4 -
12 plexes that will house 284 young women, and a club house. (Showed a detailed drawing
of the exterior of the building)
Mary Haley: Is there something in progress?
Tom: Yes the clubhouse.
Jury Hastings: Any one for this project, please come forward, their were no additional speakers,
anyone neutral, there were none, any one against the project?
12
Hanna Bird: We have concerns about the added automobile traffic and foot traffic on these
roads. The traffic conditions on Fourth South are terrible and have already resulted in the
death of one person. Our concern as community members is adding a potentia1284 cars
to a street that is already deadly. The development looks good and will be a fine housing
unit. But I want to make sure the city has the infrastructure in place before this is
approved. It's appropriate to put there, it looks to be lovely, but you have to be
responsible and have sufficient infrastructure to do that in a way that is responsible.
Jerry Hastings: Is there anyone else that would like to speak. None, then I will close the public
hearing and turn it over to the board for discussion. Kurt, do you have anything to add?
Kurt Hibbert: You have to have a conditional use permit. I don't fully understand why that is
there maybe sometime in Rexburg a 23 plex was considered a huge development and they
wanted to look at it. But the zoning that it is sitting on already allows up to 30 units per acre
so the ordinance at some point and time I would at least recommend that not knowing the full
reason for why that is in there is that we remove that at someday in our next draft of our
ordinances because the uses which are allowed by the Planning and Zoning exceed the 23
units on this particular parcel. That is why we are having public hearing tonight because of
this section of the ordinance that has that one thing under conditional use that says buildings
or developments with more than 23 dwellings. Other than that the project has been approved
by all the other departments in the city and is currently under construction.
Mary Haley: Hasn't this property come before us another time?
Kurt: Yes.
Mary Haley: Has it changed -hands since then? I cannot remember why it came before us.
Jerry Hastings: It was rezoned and the original design was to make those continuous buildings
all the way around. That was the heartburn with the commission.
Kurt: It was going from street to street and as you can see they have broken the buildings up into
smaller units that conform to the design standards.
Group discussion regarding entrances and exits.
Kurt: The city is requiring this road to be wider with the plans for arterial street improvement.
The net result of the South Rexburg arterial will be the split and allow an alternative route to
what we now have only four.
Jerry Hastings: Long term that intersection will probably go away in its present form.
Mary Haley: There will eventually be a stop light there.
John Millar: In the study in showed we would need a stoplight within 10 years, in the future we
will see that as a controlled intersection.
Mary Haely: More than 10 years down the road?
John Millar: The study said approximately in that time frame.
Mary Haley: Have they ever driven that road? Was it the state?
John Millar: An independent study by Keller & Assoc.
Joe Laird: Is that what the building will look like?
Kurt Hibbert: I wish I had drawings of all four sides to show you, it looks great from all four
sides it is very similar on all four sides to this elevation. They are offset the requirements on
the design standards are to not have a rectangular building these shapes that are shown here
are a footprint where in reality they just in, within this footprint, but they have all these jogs.
Mary Haley: So where the gable is that sticks out further or goes in further?
Kurt Hibbert: It sticks out and on the other side it goes in. They really out did themselves as far
as design standards, they really did apply them they way they should be applied and I'm
13
• anxious to see how the construction actually comes on they should set a really good
benchmark on that corner, on what we should look for in the future.
Joe Laird: What about parking?
Kurt Hibbert: Showed the location of the parking lots.
Mary Haley: What is this?
-Kurt Hibbert: Storm Drain
Storm Drain Discussion
City utilities are adequate.
Jerry Hastings: Kurt everything has been addressed, the only thing we are really looking at is
that we are required to give them a Conditional Use Permit based on the fact that they have more
than 23 units. It would appear that the City of Rexburg has some longer range plans to handle
traffic out of there. I think the island will come out, it may not put control in there, but the island
will come out so it is more of true intersection.
Mary Haley: John, will the island come out sooner than a controlled intersection?
John Millar: Probably not, we will need to review that at a later time.
Jerry Hastings: We can make a recommendation that the City of Rexburg watch the intersection
closely.
Mary Haley: That is a really bad intersection in the winter.
Jerry Hastings: Any other comments?
Mike Ricks: Mr. Chairman, I move to grant this conditional use permit for Tuscany Place.
Randall Porter: I 2"d the motion.
Vote was unanimous.
Jerry Hastings: Going back has everyone read the minutes from the April 1St meeting? Can we
vote on those? We will approve those minutes at the next meeting. Is there any agenda
items? There is one, I don't know if you have seen your email in the last couple of days.
Cathy Winters passed out the revised agenda.
Jerry Hastings: Kurt do you want to bring us up to speed on City Council actions?
Kurt Hibbert: I didn't attend City Council, Steve do you want to discuss any Planning and
Zoning issues they discussed?
Steve Zollinger: I don't anything specific was respect to Planning and Zoning, did you send any
questions up you needed answered?
Farrell Young: We dealt with Phase 1 & 2 of the Meadows of the Meadows.
Steve Zollinger: There was question came up not so much at the council, but during the course
of discussion of the Meadows, it came up that there had been a question about their
billboard. We reviewed their billboard and it is not in violation where they have some
rental and some for sale they are allowed to advertise the complex itself, it's just if they
have for sale somewhere on that billboard, it would be in conflict. That is the one just
crossing over the river. The billboard is not in violation.
Group Discussion
Jerry Hastings: Zoning compliance?
Kurt Hibbert: Nothing to report.
Jerry Hastings: Old business
Mary Haley: Kurt has the problem in my neighborhood been taken care of?
Kurt Hibbert: Which problem was that? We have several.
Mary Haley: 2"d South
14
Kurt: No, the problem is, the definition of family does not preclude family member from .
moving in with each other. They are brother and sister.
Group speaking all at once.
Mary Haley: They don't have enough parking do they?
Kurt Hibbert: That is what is bringing all the complaints.
Mary Haley: The have a single garage and a driveway. It maybe that the fellow across the
street cannot park his car across the street.
Jerry Hasting: Let's go to Item A.
Final Plat on Meadows Condominiums
Jerry Hastings: You should have a cover letter in your packet. Is everybody familiar with this?
Scott do you want to proceed.
Scott Spaulding: I don't think there is a lot to tell you, the last meeting we discussed the second
exit or entry on 7th S, the piece of property that was holding us up has been acquired. We
have approval from the fire department on this Phase 1 and Phase 2 development. Those
are the only issues that were of concern. I believe we are here to request an approval on
the final so we can forward with 6.
Mary: Do we have contained garbage areas? I notice that the garbage cans right now set against
the fence.
Bob Lamoreaux: That is part of the requirements. So they will be contained.
Jerry Hastings: The second access now where you have done this building is this storage
building going to be a new building built? Was that on the preliminary?
Scott Spaulding: Yes, we are going to have both the club house at that location and storage
building and maintenance building right there in that area. We haven't shown the
clubhouse.
Randall Porter: I guess my question is, is that what we are approving, it that part of Phase 1 or
are you going to come back.
Scott Spaulding: That will come back later, clubhouse and storage shed to be approved later
Randall Porter: So the storage building then is informational only it is not part of Phase 1.
Scott Spaulding: We do have a temporary one right now that we have on site that is an 8x12
building that we use for a maintenance building.
Randall Porter: Is that in the location where this is going to be now?
Jerry Hastings: What is the concern on the storage buildings?
Randall Porter: I just wanted to make sure that we know Phase 1 & 2 when they come back to
build this and to build their clubhouse which is going on this newly acquired property and
I am assuming the road will go in at that time.
Scott Spaulding: That is correct.
Jerry Hastings: We are not approving that at this time we are just approving the housing part of
Phase 1 and Phase 2. We just wanted to make that clear.
Joe Laird: I have a question about not do much about 1 and 2 as I do 3 & 4. There is nothing at
the upper end of this showing as far as any type of exit going over to the other roads
which means everything would have to come clear through the sub division and back out
with a great possibility of there being some clog up of the streets and no way for fire
prevention or fire truck access through it. Before we go into 3 & 4 there needs to be
some type street developed or plans for development on that north end.
Mary Haley: Never the less this all goes out
15
• Group Discussion
Jerry Hastings: Kurt when you say on this cover letter when you say counsel are you talking
about the City Council?
Kurt Hibbert: What does it read Jerry?
Jerry Hastings: The Council did request that as the adjacent land to the north of this development
gets developed that the developer seek to gain an access on the north end of the
development.
Kurt Hibbert: That is the City Council.
Jerry Hastings: That is what Joe is addressing. I'm just bringing up that your concern is exactly
what the City Council required and I think at this point we would have to know that
something as we move forward they will have to do that really is not germane to this.
Joe Laird: Qnly the extent the way the buildings are going, time is of the essence type of thing
they may need to get with neighbors to the west or north and get something resolved right
away so that it doesn't become and insolvable problem.
Scott Spaulding: We appreciate your comment there and to just let you know we have already
had some discussion with the neighboring property owners and in fact we have talked
with some of those who are developing in that area and as the developments develop and
opportunity becomes available to us it is our intent to provide access around that north
end and at the City Councils request that would be most likely one of the requirements on
the approval of Phases 3 & 4, is that we have some additional access from that end. As
was said it is good comments for our planning at this point and time we just asking for
approval on these two phases.
• Jerry Hastings: Any questions? Kurt.
Kurt Hibbert: Late afternoon staff reviews on this project; we have some survey issues that we
don't feel comfortable with right now. They are not closing, Phase 1 & Phase 2 are not
lined up. The recommendation was from the Departments was to table this until the
survey data gets resolved. The other issue is none of the other condominium plats, the
lots are not tied to any other, there is no survey, there is no way to map them, and they
are not tied to anything. We need resolve that issue as well. The departments
recommend we table this pending resolution until those technical issues are resolved.
They have to be legally tied to a point and they are not right now.
Joe Laird: Is their official condominium association.
Kurt Hibbert: The do have a homeowners associations, that is an issue with this plat, they do
need to designate areas very specifically as the common areas and that has not been done
either we don't have a good definition of where are the common areas.
Jerry Hastings: So basically you are saying this isn't really ready for final plat.
Kurt Hibbert: It's near ready but there are still technical issues that need to be resolved.
Jerry Hastings: Well I know, but it is tonight or two weeks, if the technical issues are such,
Kurt Hibbert: We recommend that we table it.
Mary Haley: I thought we talked about some of these issues last time, the association, Mr.
Spaulding came he didn't have it two meetings ago, he came with it last meeting and I
thought that we had got approval
Jerry Hastings: That was the preliminary plat
Mary Haley: That's true, but last time Mr. Spaulding brought the Association Covenants and
. Restrictions but this is outside of that.
Jerry Hastings: This is legal descriptions
16
Kurt Hibbert: There is a difference between the final plat and the preliminary plat. Preliminary •
Plat shows the entire infrastructure, it shows all the parking, the final plat just shows the
lines. It should only show that, we shouldn't have the site plan data on a final plat.
Jerry Hastings: It should show the condominium property lines, should it not?
Kurt Hibbert: Yes, it will show those property lines.
Bob Lamoreaux: May I ask a question as a very interested party here. We were really chastised
for coming unprepared to the meeting about 4 weeks ago. We submitted these drawings
to staff as least two weeks ago for review.
Kurt Hibbert: We received these two days ago. The drawing you have in front of you we
received two days ago.
Bob Lamoreaux: I've had them myself longer than that and I gave them to Blair longer than that
ago. My question is this I appreciate the process, I really do, what I would like to know
is there anyway that we can get feed back from staff so that we can make these kinds of
corrections versus finding them out at this point when we come here believing that (I'm
not the surveyor) everything was prepared and everything was OK. Now we have wasted
your time and again and have wasted our time.. i
Kurt Hibbert: Scott I would like to bring it to your attention the date stamp on these plans. That
is the official date stamp. You can get that feedback when staff has had time to review ~~,
the documents, but when we get them two days before a meeting it's not adequate time to ~,
review the documents and time for us to get the feed back to you and to the ~I
Commissioners. That is the frustration we have as well. '!~
Scott Spaulding: We got stuck in the process because they were delivered to Blair Kay, long ',
before that date.
. I
`~ John Millar: You are chastising us, I'm going to chastise you further, you should know that we ,
would not even give this the time of day to review, this is a site plan, not a final plat, you
as a professional he knows what is needed, I have a hard time you chastising us for not
moving on it and you don't bring the documents-that we need to review.
Scott Spaulding: I can appreciate your point of view too that I guess that what I was thinking
was that staff would call up and say hey this thing is not ready we are not going to review
it. Then I can go after my surveyor and say how come. I appreciate it; I don't want to
waste your time either.
Mary Haley: It seems to me that all of you better be checking with each other rather than
waiting for us to check with our.
Scott Spaulding: I agree, I spent probably a couple of hours in here yesterday afternoon making
sure to my understanding right I didn't understand any of that.
Randall Porter: Why doesn't your surveyor come with you and this same conversation, was he
with you two meetings ago?
Scott Spaulding: Yes he was.
Randall Porter: I understand your frustrations, Scott but you have to realize that there is protocol
that we have to follow.
Bob Lamoreaux: I appreciate that I really do, I'm only asking, maybe it is inappropriate to ask,
even if they just go it the other day, we as the owner developer, if they could give us a
call and say this is not going forward.
.Jerry Hastings: What usually has happened, just to let you know, this group because of all the
pressures had many times the staff has moved things to this group in hopes that they had
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17
• it later than we would like to have had it. I think that is why it is on there. It was on
there to try and expedite it, but when we don't get the information then it is obliviously
going to come up at this meeting and so your surveyors, this is not the first time he has
done this.
Bob Lamoreaux: I agree 100%, thank you for your time.
Mike Ricks: In lieu of that I move that we table it.
Mary Haley: I 2"d the motion.
Jerry Hastings: It has been moved and seconded that we table the final plat on the Meadows.
Vote was unanimous
Group discussion regarding through street for Meadows.
Preliminary Plat for the Valley View Estates I3ivision ~5
Schiess & Associates, Kurt Rowland: Bart Stevens
Bart Stevens handed out copes of the Preliminary Plat.
Jerry Hastings: Kurt, we want to proceed with Valley View. We don't have your staff notes in
front of us so you will have to bring us up to speed on this project.
Kurt Hibbert: This is currently in review, I have talked to public works department about it, and
there a few things he wanted to see on this as far as the sewer going through some of
these lots and the way it connects to this new lot. We have no real concerns with this as a
Preliminary I didn't have anything, but it is still being reviewed. Staff has not had
adequate time to review, but it look approvable. It doesn't look like there is anything that
. cannot be addressed.
Jerry Hastings: Will you review where the existing homes are right now.
Kurt Hibbert: Showed the details on the plat.
Group Discussion regarding location of homes and parking.
Jerry Hastings: Was this Master Plan presented before with the first phase.
Kurt Hibbert: No.
Jerry Hastings: Do you have this Master Plan, Mr. Stevens.
Bart Stevens: We didn't.
Jerry Hastings: So this Master Plan is coming forward with this now.
Bart Stevens: These roads where shown, this layout on the rest of the way down is new, but
roads here, the existing sewer line and the water line that has been in for 20+ years was in
this so there was no way to change this. The Master Plan from the old AMR Corp. that
.had these roads going all the way down through. It had Cresthaven size lots, so when we
came in we had to abandon, a portion of this and had to change all of this, and we put this
in with the idea that we would come down with North/South streets to give a better
daylight basement situation for these homes up here. The Master Plan, from this point
down, Kurt has just put that together, but the streets and that of course were all ready in.
Mary Haley: Is the top of this road there now?
Bart Stevens: No, it stops right here. This is Fairview, this is Fairview going down and all these
homes have been there for several years.
Jerry Hastings: Is this water line is existing?
Bart Stevens: Yes, the water main was existing way back, we put the sewer in with this last
section, it came into this point and then we took it down where the road planned and tied
•
18
it in to the bottom of Cresthaven. That was all done two or three years ago. So the plans •
for all of that can't be changed that way.
Mary Haley: You said you changed lot size, are they bigger?
Jerry Hastings: Yes. Before you came on the Commission, we had a hearing and abandoned the
AMR streets, right.
Bart Stevens: Yes and you can see a little bit of the size of the lots that used to be here, then you
see the size they have been extended to. Some of those lots were quite small, it just got
to the point there was over 200 lots in this piece of ground the way it was platted. This
steps it back to about 112.
Group Discussion regarding church property locations.
Bart Stevens: We will tie into l lth eventually so that will make this situation nice to take the
pressure off the people who live here going through the campus, exit the entire area
through 11th S.
Group Discussion regarding streets and drainage.
Jerry Hastings: Are there any other questions?
Joe Laird: I make a motion that we approve Preliminary Plat for Valley View Estates Division #
5 subject to staff reviews and approval.
Mike Ricks: 2"d
Vote unanimous
Group Discussion re: Commercial Design Standards
Kurt Hibbert: I appreciate what Donna said about descriptive and prescriptive that is a key point
whether you have to do it or not
Suggestions: No galvanized tin buildings, no cider block buildings (can't say cinder block) •
Deseret Industries is Cinder Block a little paint makes a difference, put things in that
make suggestions, but not be very specific. Need to give direction as to paint and not
leave things unfinished. Suggest building materials.
Town Meetings
Peggy Hymas has done most of the work.
Kurt Hibbert and Winston Dyer will split the meetings and each will attend two.
The Town meeting schedule is as follows:
Apri122, 2004
Adams School
Dave Stein
Mary Haley
Madison M.S.
Mike Ricks
Bob Schwartz
April 29, 2004
Kennedy
Randall Porter
Jerry Hastings
Lincoln
•
19
• Joe Laird
Steve McGary
Randall Porter: What do we need to do to prepare for these meetings?
Kurt Hibbert: Some of things we might do, I have quite a bit on input on the mixed use map as
far as the mixed use zone, one discussion I want to have with you tonight was we haven't
defined mixed use and yet we have it on the comp plan map.. People are starting to ask
what does that mean for our neighborhood and I don't have a clear definition for that
right now. Is that going to be professional office, certain commercial uses, what does
mixed use mean to the commissioners. How do you want to define that zone? We have
applied it to the map in two places. I have had several people come in and ask me that
and I have said well there still defining that and have a lot of discussion about it including
certain office type uses in neighborhoods and to there is also they are developing a zone
which is a professional office zone. They may not want to supplant that and call it mixed
use.
Jerry Hastings: My impression was that was all driven by what started at Valley, they were
designed more for commercial with residential above and that type of thing. In my mind
that is what I always thought of as mixed use.
Randall Porter: What do you mean by that commercial with housing?
Kurt Hibbert: Commercial storefronts, housing above and behind. They supply your downtown
market with certain commercial areas by having people living with commercial business.
Mary Haley: However I don't think that is what the neighborhood in my area is thinking about
with mixed use and that is where it is labeled.
Mary Haley: What I'm thinking of as mixed use, when you are out on Holmes, going south you
have some lawyers there that have their business in the home and they have a very subtle
sign, and have made use of those homes, they still look like residential homes, that is to
me the mixed use, for the area the problem area right now.
Kurt Hibbert: We are talking zones, I get confused sometimes and get to thinking mixed use is a
zone and it is a zone, proposed as a zone.
Mary Haley: What Jerry and I are talking about and I see what Jerry is looking at in a more
highly dense zone rather and an old neighborhood zone.
Jerry Hastings: We are talking about two things here, we are talking about transitional which are
really what you area potentially could be or any area, much like the Zollinger block. It's
transitional, I guess I haven't thought of that in my mind as mixed use I thought as you
develop and want density housing around your commercial area that you have that step
back where you are stepping back into high density.
Randall Porter: Haven't we got that already on Main Street.
Kurt Hibbert: Only in central business district is that allowed. It is not in highway business
district.
Group discussion
Jerry Hastings: Stephen, what is the definition of mixed use in solid city areas?
Stephen Zollinger: They have defined zones, similar to the Portland area, where they call our
neighborhoods and each neighborhood then has its own designation within the
neighborhood zones. So they will take a mixed use zone and say within this zone they
• almost create PUDs by edict.
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- Mary Haley: When we are talking about what was originally planned behind Goldstone in that •
area that was originally called a mixed use area.
Stephen Zollinger: The general definition of mixed use is any place where you integrate
commercial and residential uses into a cone.
Mary Haley: So professional is not commercial?
Kurt: Yes it is. The general public out that is every thing from Wal-mart, to gas stations. You
really have to go down to the neighborhood business district think about things that you
are describing no pavilions, small signs, looks like a house. Those type of uses blend,
they are seamless you can have attorney's offices right next to home.
Group Discussion regarding mixed use.
Stephen Zollinger: Mixed use the whole purpose behind it is to allow single family use to
continue to exist, the best example is: South and North Temple in Salt Lake City, there
are mansions that are being revitalized for single families next to lawyers, doctors, and
the Masonic Temple, people have elected to put their families back on the major arterial.
The purpose behind a mixed use is to take a neighborhood like by old neighborhood and
say look; we recognize there are only two realistic possibilities for the middle of that
block. Somebody is going to push to build apartments, or we are going to allow you to
go into what is called the mixed use where you single families can continue to coexist
with professional looking office space, not retail, not traffic flow, but something that will
put some use to that block. In the real world, mixed use is designed to preserve single
family neighborhoods that are faltering.
Kurt Hibbert: Need to redefine mixed use, need to get input from the people, discuss at the
town meeting mixed use. •
Stephen Zollinger: Homeowners Associations will be given the courtesy of access.
Group Discussion
Winston Dyer: It is time that any item that comes before this group, even though we are being
pushed for time, in fairness to you and the staff, needs to have the staff review. The
packet comes to us complete, the complications that we have had here tonight would not
have happened. I think it is time that if they don't meet the deadlines that they will not be
on this to leave it till the next meeting.
Kurt Hibbert: The commission does not want to see agenda items where they do not have fact
sheets on or they do not have findings of facts.
Randall Porter: Wants street address on each agenda item.
Group Discussion: Regarding meeting, reviews and packet format. Wants to see the Master Plan
before and along with each proposed phase of a plat. Establish a time limit of a
minimum of 2 weeks in advance before a meeting for the plans to be in, need a minimum
of 4 copies.
Dismiss 9:50
•
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