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RE: RV Storage building
RE:
Quinton Owens
Jay Woodward
Quinton Owens
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JWoodward@iccsafe.org
RV Storage building
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From: Jay Woodward <JWoodward@iccsafe.org>
To: Quinton Owens <Quinton.Owens@rexburg.org>
Subject: RE: RV Storage building
Thread-Topic: RV Storage building
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Jay Woodward
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JWoodward@iccsafe.org
Quinton Owens
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RV Storage building
Quinton,
Right after I sent my reply I got a reply back from Doug Thornburg, who
I had called to discuss this with. Here is what Doug sent back as a
reply. He definitely leans toward the S-1 classification based on the
report from Rolf Jensen Associates (RJA) and the comment he copied out
of it. Here is what Doug sent to me.
Jay, on your RV storage question, I found a report written by RJA back
in 2009 regarding required sprinkler protection for such a facility.
Although I can’t find where they assigned an occupancy classification,
they did seem to indicate that it was much more hazardous than an
automobile parking garage. Below is an excerpt from the report. Along
with other data included in the report, I would tend to agree that it
poses a greater hazard than a parking garage. Therefore, I would
probably go with a Group S-1 classification in the same manner as boat
storage. This would make for a good code change.
* The hazards and concerns present in this facility that
distinguish it from a typical parking garage are the high fuel load
contained in the RV, the presence of a propane storage tank in the
vehicle, and the quantity of fuel in the vehicle’s tank compared to what
is found in a typical automobile.
Just thought I would pass this along since it gives another piece of
support for doing the S-1 occupancy versus the “parking garage” use.
Jay
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jay A. Woodward
Senior Staff Architect
ICC Distribution Center
11711 W. 85th Street
Lenexa, KS 66214-1517
Phone: (888) ICC-SAFE [422-7233] Ext. 3814
Fax: (888) 329-4220
E-mail: jwoodward@iccsafe.org <mailto:jwoodward@iccsafe.org>
To visit our website, click on http://www.iccsafe.org
<http://www.iccsafe.org/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: Jay Woodward
Sent: Monday, July 22, 2019 3:00 PM
To: Quinton Owens <Quinton.Owens@rexburg.org>
Subject: RE: RV Storage building
Quinton,
Sorry for the slow response. I was at a chapter meeting on Friday
afternoon and am just now getting to this.
I was just looking at the “RV” as being a motor vehicle and that was
why I ended up in the S-2 occupancy. I had not thought about the camper
type vehicles (5th wheel trailers and such), but that is an interesting
wrench to throw into the works.
I agree with your comment about generally starting with “storage” as
being an S-1 (since it includes combustible storage items) and then only
letting them go into the S-2 when they are storing noncombustible items.
But this is also something where the code seems a bit confused with what
it normally does and what it does for the motor vehicles. Where the
motor vehicles are being parked/stored, we would call that a garage and
put them into the lower hazard S-2 occupancy, while we then move vehicle
repair into the higher hazard S-1 category. But that leads to asking
questions like why does a motor vehicle RV get to go into an S-2 use
while a camper/trailer/fifth wheel that does not have a motor would
seemingly need to go into the S-1 and really would be similar to the
“boat storage” use that you originally looked at.
I don’t really have a good answer for that from the code perspective.
It is weird that having the motor makes the use less hazardous than a
camper without a motor would be. It makes sense from the parking vs.
repair aspect, but not the motorized vs. non-motorized. And as you
said, these definitely are combustible items that are being stored, so
from that perspective starting as an S-1 does make sense.
There definitely is nothing code wise that will address an RV any
differently than a motor vehicle. Years ago we use to discuss
“commercial vehicles” versus “private vehicles” but that got removed
from the code because of the complexities that it caused. They also for
a while used the Gross Vehicle Weight in some codes, but again that did
not work in all states with their definitions of private versus
commercial and did not always really provide a good justification as to
a difference in hazard.
In the end, I think the S-1 or S-2 would somewhat be a coin-flip
decision depending on whether you start from the motor vehicle S-2
garage viewpoint or whether you start at the combustible storage/dry
boat/non-motorized perspective and look at the S-1 as the starting point
and most appropriate. Once you pointed out the fallacy of the
non-motorized camper storage being an S-1, that does seem like a
reasonable thing and probably is something I would also do – now that I
think of it. I had never thought of it before you mentioned that
option/issue since I just had the viewpoint that the RV was a motor
vehicle.
Ultimately it may not be a huge issue either way since they are
oversized for both the S-2 or S-1. I guess the S-1 classification would
give them more options for what is allowed to be stored in the future
(boats, non-motorized campers/trailers, or an RV) while it is easily
argued that the dry boat storage should not be in the S-2. Then from
the sprinkler system perspective, it would also not make much of a
difference unless they were doing repair or servicing. Otherwise the
12,000 sq. ft. fire area limit for the enclosed parking garage, or S-1
occupancy would basically trigger the need for a sprinkler under either
occupancy classification.
Therefore, perhaps the thing to do would be to simply look at the pros
and cons of each occupancy classification and see if there is something
you really would get or lose if you called the building one use or the
other. Then looking at the added flexibility of what you could store in
an S-1 may be the deciding factor and may be the best thing to do.
Jay
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jay A. Woodward
Senior Staff Architect
ICC Distribution Center
11711 W. 85th Street
Lenexa, KS 66214-1517
Phone: (888) ICC-SAFE [422-7233] Ext. 3814
Fax: (888) 329-4220
E-mail: jwoodward@iccsafe.org <mailto:jwoodward@iccsafe.org>
To visit our website, click on http://www.iccsafe.org
<http://www.iccsafe.org/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: Quinton Owens <Quinton.Owens@rexburg.org>
Sent: Friday, July 19, 2019 12:46 PM
To: Jay Woodward <JWoodward@iccsafe.org>
Subject: RE: RV Storage building
Jay,
Thank you for the response. I am curious where S-2 covers RV storage as
a parking garage. As I was reading section 406 or 311, I could not find
RV’s specifically identified. Some RV’s are motor vehicles, but for the
others I asked myself are they non-combustible or combustible storage. I
favor the latter because of the larger amount of foams, plastics,
upholstered materials and other combustibles than found in cars/trucks,
but if code has it as S-2 I am willing to look at that section. I will
be requiring the fire walls or to physically separate the building into
smaller sections. Mentioning sprinklers could at least make them feel
better about the fire wall. Thanks again for your input. It helps
support my review since the mayor has become involved (this is not the
only conflict on this project).
Quinton Owens, CFM
Plans Examiner/Inspector
City of Rexburg
Phone: (208) 372-2173
Cell: (208) 716-1325
From: Jay Woodward [mailto:JWoodward@iccsafe.org]
Sent: Thursday, July 18, 2019 3:22 PM
To: Quinton Owens <Quinton.Owens@rexburg.org
<mailto:Quinton.Owens@rexburg.org> >
Subject: RE: RV Storage building
Quinton,
This is a fun one because it has a lot of moving parts and there are
certain reasons to look at it one way and then other reasons to look at
it differently and get a bit of a different answer.
I guess the easiest way to start off is that this clearly does not
comply with the code due to its size and type of construction unless
they have some fire walls or install a sprinkler system.
I can see using the S-1 occupancy due to the boat storage aspect, but
it is also interesting that the S-2 which is less restrictive (less of a
hazard) covers the RV storage as a “parking” garage. So if you repair
the RV it would be an R-1 but just parking/storing it would make it an
S-2. It is interesting that the boats are considered as a higher hazard
– and therefore the S-1 even though it really is still just storage.
Guess it goes back to the initial classification of S-1 being storage
for combustible items and S-2 is for storage of noncombustible items.
So maybe it is based on the fiberglass/wood boats versus metal bodies
for the cars, but there are a lot of metal/aluminum boats and also some
composite/fiberglass cars. Therefore it really seems to simply be cars
vs. boats.
The open side of the building will not have any type of impact. As you
pointed out, an open parking garage would require the openings to be
distributed along two sides and would also need to be a Type IV or
better construction.
Due to the occupancies and the associated hazards, the required fire
protection/sprinkler issue also would be impacted by whichever occupancy
classification you ultimately use. Section 903.2.9 items 1, 3 or 4
would be the provisions to look at for an S-1 occupancy. If you went
with the S-2 occupancy classification, then it is only going to require
the sprinkler if you end up with this as an “enclosed” parking garage –
which is what the one side open building would be.
However, based on the building’s size, you would need to provide a
sprinkler system in the building in order to be able to get the 9,000
sq. ft. (or 13,500 sq. ft.) basic allowable area limits up to the point
where this 29,636 sq. ft. area would be acceptable. Therefore you would
need to at least have one fire wall (to create a separate building and
keep the fire area below the 24,000 sq. ft. limitation) and then you
would need to also provide at least one fire barrier (3-hour if S-1) in
order to keep the individual fire areas beneath the 12,000 sq. ft.
limitation.
You would need to just look at 706.5 and the subsections there for the
fire wall continuity. Specifically Section 706.5.2 would probably be
the one you need to look at the closest. How far the wall extends
toward that open side would then impact if you could stop the wall at
“the outer edge” of the horizontal projection or whether you would need
to rate a part of the roof for a certain distance to each side of the
wall.
I guess the main thing I can tell you is that I don’t have any great
ideas or options to get you out of the problems with this project. It
is just too big given the occupancy, type of construction, and not being
sprinklered. So without sprinklers or compartmentation the building is
just noncompliant.
Sorry I don’t have any solutions, but I assumed you came to the same
conclusion and were just hoping for a way to accept this building that
really is not going to be a great hazard or endanger a lot of people
even though it is just a big fuel load and basically an empty building.
Don’t hesitate to get back with me if you have any follow-up questions
or if I need to clarify my comments.
Jay
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Jay A. Woodward
Senior Staff Architect
ICC Distribution Center
11711 W. 85th Street
Lenexa, KS 66214-1517
Phone: (888) ICC-SAFE [422-7233] Ext. 3814
Fax: (888) 329-4220
E-mail: jwoodward@iccsafe.org <mailto:jwoodward@iccsafe.org>
To visit our website, click on http://www.iccsafe.org
<http://www.iccsafe.org/>
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
From: Quinton Owens <Quinton.Owens@rexburg.org
<mailto:Quinton.Owens@rexburg.org> >
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2019 6:34 PM
To: Jay Woodward <JWoodward@iccsafe.org <mailto:JWoodward@iccsafe.org>
>
Subject: RV Storage building
Hello Jay,
I am interested how you would apply the IBC to a 29,636 square foot
wood framed RV storage building. It is all open on one side, no garage
doors, with dividing shear walls every 72 ft. I am classifying it as S-1
occupancy since dry boat storage is listed under S-1 and may be stored
in this building along with RV’s (not listed under S-1 or S-2). Now
looking at allowable area it is over 3x’s the limit for the
non-sprinkled building. On a previous enclosed RV storage building I
required fire walls to separate the structure into separate buildings no
greater than 9,000 sf each. Though one side of this new building is all
open, would requiring a 3 hr fire wall separation really be effective,
is a one hour wall sufficient, or no fire wall? The open side is
throwing me off on this one. Even if I look at IBC 406.5.4 for open
parking garage area (S-2), the construction type is limited to IV.
In consideration of sprinkler requirements, if it somehow works without
fire walls creating separate buildings, then sprinklers would be
required with the total area over 24,000 sf (IBC 903.2.9).
Let me know if you have any perspective I am missing. Our local chapter
meeting is tomorrow morning and I going to bring up this question there
too.
Thank you.
Quinton Owens, CFM
Plans Examiner/Inspector
City of Rexburg
Phone: (208) 372-2173
Cell: (208) 716-1325
FE36D9BCBAD8B345A98A7DADC1282BC6@rexburg.org
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<Version>15.0.0.0</Version>
<Phones>
<Phone StartIndex="1533" Position="Other">
<PhoneString>8884227233</PhoneString>
<OriginalPhoneString>(888) ICC-SAFE</OriginalPhoneString>
</Phone>
<Phone StartIndex="1575" Position="Other" Type="Fax">
<PhoneString>8883294220</PhoneString>
<OriginalPhoneString>(888) 329-4220</OriginalPhoneString>
</Phone>
</Phones>
</PhoneSet>
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-16"?>
<AddressSet>
<Version>15.0.0.0</Version>
<Addresses>
<Address StartIndex="1481">11711 W. 85th Street
Lenexa, KS 66214-1517</Address>
</Addresses>
</AddressSet>
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-16"?>
<ContactSet>
<Version>15.0.0.0</Version>
<Contacts>
<Contact StartIndex="1415">
<Person StartIndex="1415">
<PersonString>Jay A. Woodward</PersonString>
</Person>
<Business StartIndex="1456">
<BusinessString>ICC Distribution Center</BusinessString>
</Business>
<Addresses>
<Address StartIndex="1481">11711 W. 85th Street
Lenexa, KS 66214-1517</Address>
</Addresses>
<ContactString>Jay A. Woodward
Senior Staff Architect
ICC Distribution Center
11711 W. 85th Street
Lenexa, KS 66214-1517</ContactString>
</Contact>
</Contacts>
</ContactSet>
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-16"?>
<EmailSet>
<Version>15.0.0.0</Version>
<Emails>
<Email StartIndex="1600" Position="Other">
<EmailString>jwoodward@iccsafe.org</EmailString>
</Email>
<Email StartIndex="1790" Position="Other">
<EmailString>Quinton.Owens@rexburg.org</EmailString>
</Email>
</Emails>
</EmailSet>
<?xml version="1.0" encoding="utf-16"?>
<UrlSet>
<Version>15.0.0.0</Version>
<Urls>
<Url StartIndex="1655" Position="Other" Type="Url">
<UrlString>http://www.iccsafe.org</UrlString>
</Url>
</Urls>
</UrlSet>
Quinton.Owens@rexburg.org
00000002/o=RexburgCityMail/ou=First Administrative Group/cn=Recipients/cn=quintono
Quinton Owens
EX
/o=RexburgCityMail/ou=First Administrative Group/cn=Recipients/cn=quintono
Quinton.Owens@rexburg.org
Quinton Owens
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